The "Meddler"

Identifying the Meddler:

Identifying a meddler on your HOA board is crucial for maintaining harmony and efficiency within your community. Meddlers can significantly disrupt community operations and create unnecessary conflicts. Here are detailed descriptions of the traits that typically identify a meddler:

Excessive Curiosity

A meddler often displays an unwarranted level of interest in the personal affairs of other residents and the minutiae of community management. This curiosity extends beyond healthy concern, manifesting as intrusive questions about private matters or undue scrutiny of benign community activities.

Micromanagement Tendencies

Meddlers frequently interfere with the operations of the HOA by insisting on overseeing even the smallest details. This behavior can undermine the roles and expertise of other board members and staff, leading to inefficiencies and frustration within the team. They often question decisions made by committees or other board members, insisting on reevaluating work that has already been completed or approved.

Gossiping and Rumor-Spreading

Meddlers tend to spread unverified information and rumors within the community. This trait can lead to mistrust among residents, damage reputations, and create rifts within the community. The spread of gossip can also have legal repercussions if it defames an individual or violates privacy.

Selective Enforcement of Rules

One of the more damaging traits of a meddler is the selective enforcement of rules, applying them unevenly to different residents, often based on personal biases. This practice not only undermines the fairness expected in community management but can also lead to legal challenges against the HOA for discriminatory practices.

Lack of Personal Boundaries

Meddlers often do not recognize or respect personal boundaries, which can lead to inappropriate interactions with other residents. They may feel entitled to discuss or intervene in personal issues, or they may enter private property without permission, both of which are serious breaches of community etiquette and legal boundaries.

Pursuing Personal Agendas

Often, meddlers will use their position on the HOA board to advance personal interests rather than focusing on the welfare of the community. This might involve manipulating decisions or using HOA resources in ways that benefit them personally, such as pushing for changes that increase the value of their property or decrease that of a neighbor.

Resistance to Constructive Feedback

When confronted with criticism or advice, meddlers typically show a strong resistance to feedback. They may react defensively or dismissively, refusing to acknowledge the validity of other perspectives. This resistance can stifle constructive dialogue and impede the board's ability to function effectively.

Addressing the Challenges Posed by a Meddler

To manage a meddler effectively, it's essential to have clear policies in place that define the roles and responsibilities of board members. Regular training sessions can help reinforce these guidelines and educate members about appropriate conduct. When dealing with a meddler, it may be necessary to:

-Clearly communicate the concerns regarding their behavior in a formal setting.
-Provide specific examples of actions that were problematic.
-Offer solutions or request changes in behavior.
-If necessary, involve a mediator or legal advisor to address ongoing issues, especially if the behavior breaches legal obligations or HOA bylaws.

Recognizing and addressing the disruptive behaviors of a meddler is critical to preserving the integrity and effectiveness of your HOA board and ensuring that your community remains a pleasant and fair environment for all residents.

The Impact of Meddlers in HOAs:

Meddlers in homeowners' associations (HOAs) can have a profoundly negative impact on community dynamics and the overall functioning of the association. Their behavior, driven by an overzealous interest in the lives and affairs of other residents, often leads to several detrimental outcomes:

1. Erosion of Trust and Community Spirit:
   A meddler’s excessive involvement can erode trust among residents. Community spirit relies heavily on mutual respect and privacy; when a meddler oversteps these boundaries, it can create an atmosphere of suspicion and discomfort. Residents may feel their private lives are being unfairly scrutinized, leading to a decrease in community participation and cooperation.

2. Legal and Compliance Issues:
   Meddlers often blur the lines between oversight and overreach, potentially leading to legal issues for the HOA. For instance, their actions might result in privacy violations if they disclose sensitive information about residents without proper authorization. This not only breaches individual privacy but could also expose the HOA to lawsuits and legal scrutiny, requiring intervention by an HOA attorney to mitigate risks.

3. Conflict and Disputes:
   The nature of a meddler’s behavior typically stirs conflict. Whether through selective enforcement of rules—targeting certain homeowners over minor infractions—or through the spreading of rumors, the discord sewn by a meddler can lead to heightened tensions and even formal disputes. These situations often necessitate legal advice or intervention to resolve, adding unnecessary costs and strife within the community.

4. Inefficiency in HOA Operations:
   Meddlers can significantly hamper the efficiency of HOA operations. By focusing on trivial matters or personal vendettas, they can divert the board’s attention from more important issues such as maintenance, community improvement projects, and financial management. This misdirection of resources results in a lack of progress in areas that genuinely affect the quality of life and property values within the community.

5. Damage to Property Values:
   The presence of a meddler on the HOA board can indirectly affect property values. Potential buyers might be deterred by the negative atmosphere created by ongoing disputes and the visible effects of poor community management. Additionally, existing residents may find it difficult to sell their properties if the meddler’s actions contribute to a declining reputation of the neighborhood.

6. Increased Legal Costs:
   When meddlers push the boundaries of their roles, legal issues often follow. Whether it’s defending the HOA from lawsuits brought on by the meddler’s actions or pursuing legal measures to curb their overreach, the financial burden on the association can be significant. These legal costs are typically shared by all members through their HOA fees, thus affecting everyone in the community.

Legal Remedies and Preventative Measures:

Dealing with a meddler on your HOA board requires a strategic approach that balances internal resolution efforts with the potential need for legal intervention. Here are some guidelines on how to effectively manage such situations:

1. Managing a Meddler without Legal Intervention

Engage in Informal Dispute Resolution (IDR): Initiating an informal dispute resolution (IDR) is a constructive first step when dealing with a meddler. This process, as outlined under the Davis-Sterling Act in California, encourages homeowners and the HOA to resolve conflicts amicably without resorting to litigation. This approach can often defuse tensions and lead to mutually agreed-upon solutions.

-How to Initiate IDR: Send a formal but casual email to the HOA management or board, expressing your concerns and requesting an IDR session. Clearly state the issues you wish to discuss.

-Benefits of IDR: IDR provides a platform to address grievances directly with the board in a less confrontational setting, which can foster better understanding and cooperation.

Documentation and Communication: Keep detailed records of all instances of meddling behavior. Documenting specific incidents can provide clear examples of the meddler's overreach, which can be crucial during IDR sessions or in discussions with other board members.

-Gathering Allies: If other residents have experienced similar issues, their support can strengthen your case. Collectively addressing the behavior can have a greater impact and help in achieving a community-wide resolution.

Offer Constructive Feedback: Directly engaging with the meddler can sometimes lead to improvements. Offer clear, specific feedback about how their actions are impacting others and suggest alternative ways they can contribute positively to the community.

2. When to Bring in an Attorney

Failure of IDR and Ongoing Issues: If the meddler dismisses the concerns presented during IDR or if the behavior escalates, it may be time to consider legal intervention. Here are signs that legal help is needed:

-Non-compliance or Rejection of IDR: If the meddler or the board outright rejects the request for IDR or fails to engage in the process in good faith, legal advice may become necessary.

-Continued Breaches of Conduct: Persistent behavior that clearly violates HOA bylaws or state laws, especially after attempts at resolution, indicates a need for more formal legal measures.

-Significant Impact on Community: When a meddler's actions start affecting the legal standing or operational integrity of the HOA, or when their behavior leads to significant community discord or financial implications, an attorney should be consulted to protect the interests of the homeowners and the association.

Legal Strategies: An HOA attorney can provide guidance on how to proceed based on the specific circumstances. This may include sending formal legal notices to the meddler, preparing for litigation, or advising the board on steps to restrict the meddler's influence legally.

-Understanding Legal and Ethical Boundaries: Attorneys specializing in HOA law can help clarify the legal boundaries that may be crossed and assist in formulating a strategy that includes preparing for potential litigation if necessary.

Resolution and Prevention: Involving an attorney can also help establish protocols to prevent future issues, ensuring that the board operates within legal confines and respects the rights of all homeowners.

Engaging a meddler with the right balance of internal management and legal readiness can lead to effective resolution of conflicts, maintaining community harmony and ensuring the HOA functions as intended.

Conclusion: Deep Dive into Dealing with 'The Meddler' on Our Podcast

For those seeking a deeper understanding of handling disputes with a meddler in your HOA, we invite you to tune into our podcast, "Bad HOA," where we delve extensively into this topic. In our episode titled "The Meddler," HOA Attorney Luke Carlson offers expert insights and real-life scenarios that illuminate the challenges and effective strategies for dealing with this disruptive personality type. This episode not only expands on the points discussed in this blog but also provides listeners with actionable advice and the opportunity to hear from a lawyer who have navigated these waters successfully.

Whether you're currently facing issues with a meddler or simply wish to be prepared for future board dynamics, this podcast episode is an invaluable resource. It equips you with knowledge and tactics that go beyond the blog, giving you the confidence to handle complex situations with grace and assertiveness. Tune in to gain perspective and strategies that will help you maintain a harmonious community, safeguard your rights, and ensure your HOA operates effectively.

Don't let a meddler disrupt your community's peace. Learn more by listening to our podcast and equip yourself with the tools needed for effective HOA management.

Bad HOA Podcast, "The Meddler" Transcript

https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ls-carlson-law/episodes/Persona-Series---The-Meddler-e2iiv4v

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Thank you for being back on the show. I appreciate it.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Always fun.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

So fun to be here.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

So today's show is interesting because historically when we look at association law and homeowners coming to us, you know, there's the one part of, okay, where is the association going wrong? Where are they going? You know, where's the malfeasance? But the question is what's driving it? Because unlike businesses, you know, businesses are a bit more calculated, there's less emotion, but over the last 10 years plus, what we consistently see are certain personalities that are often, driving these disputes, which we thought was interesting, saying, okay, not only looking at the association as entity, but the people that make up the association. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And so we're going to do sort of a series on the different personality types, because I think it's really important for a homeowner to say, okay, I'm dealing with X type of personality. And when you have X type of personality, how do you deal with that? How do you avoid that? And what are some of the byproducts of that personality

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

that can make, you know, your life a living hell. So I think it's important to identify and label these personality types because, again, historically we see it over and over and over again. So with that foundation, the first personality type, and I think this one we see so consistently, is the meddler.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

I feel like you're looking at me.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

No, no, no, not at all.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

I may have some characteristics.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

We have no meddlers on the show. So it's a meddle -free environment. But really what we're saying and what we've identified is the board of director or the board member who consistently sort of goes outside of the bounds of their responsibilities and is really in everyone else's business consistently. Now the problem with that, as we see it, is as a board member, at least in California, they have a fiduciary to the owners. It's a fiduciary relationship. But for whatever reason, the meddler doesn't draw that distinction. There's no boundary, right? Where does their duty end? And because they can't identify that boundary, you see a lot of overreach. And because they're in a position of power, right, they're a director, it really gets nightmarish for the homeowners. Maybe one homeowner, maybe a bunch of homeowners. So I guess with that, from your guys' perspective, what would be the easiest way to access the meddler, the profile, what would you guys like to know? And that will help guide me in terms of what we've seen and the information that I can share on it.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

I think maybe some specific examples of maybe cases that you've had over the years would be pretty interesting. Okay. Of the meddler. Yeah. Or personality traits, specifically, and maybe a couple of examples with that as well. Okay.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

I kind of picture a woman walking with a clipboard, because that's a neighborhood I know of has, where she walks her dog with a clipboard, making notes.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Isn't there a commercial with like, they're like waving at each other? Yes. And then they're like super cordial, and then, how you doing? Then they take a they take a chainsaw to their to the after the neighbors talking they take the neighbor takes a chainsaw and Saws off the mailbox. He says a bug regulation and it was making fun of HOA's that it was it was just over

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Regulation person with a clipboard is a good example. I think nowadays in the more modern area. They're using drones Right to see what's in your backyard now the distinction there is the drone, is the clipboard sanctioned by the board or are they just going, they're taking an extra step, right? And that's really what you're looking at. Were they sanctioned to investigate or are they just investigating because that's part of their DNA? And so when it's sanctioned by the board, the board has a right to say, hey, we need to investigate certain violations. We want someone to go out, it's systematic. They say, hey, look at all mailboxes and make sure all mailboxes conform. That's one thing. But it's different with a meddler who unilaterally says, I don't think they all conform. I'm going to go out and just sort of identify what I think is wrong. Because the issue there is that's where you start to get this selective enforcement. And I think that's one of the biggest byproducts of a meddler,

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

because it's not uniform. It's not a uniform application of enforcement. It's, hey, you know what, I don't like this person. I'm going to go look at their house, right? They're sort of meddling in the affairs of others outside of what the board has sanctioned.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

But is it always because they have a vendetta against a certain person, or is it just they have, there's a power struggle, or they just are drunk with their own newly found power and just want to enforce?

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Maybe all of the above. I think what distinguishes a meddler though, it's driven out just by sort of a curiosity to sort of get into other people's business, but also a lack of boundaries. So it may not necessarily be motivated by some sort of malice. Certain personality types that we'll discuss down the road, it's malice -driven, but a meddler, it's sometimes just rogue curiosity.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

Do you think most meddlers are specific, honing in on one person, or do you think that they're equally meddling in everyone's business?

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

It depends, I mean, we've seen both variations of the meddler. You know, you have the meddler who is just sort of obsessed with a group of people, and they're all up in a group of people's business. It could be one person, or they just meddle within the entire community affairs. The other issue that we see, though, is communication. And under a board, under the umbrella of an association, certain information is private. The meddler, often in the communication side of things, they sort of breach that confidentiality. There's certain data that they are privy to that they really are not supposed to disclose to others. And now we're talking about privacy violations. So the meddler will have very sensitive information that's not supposed to be disclosed. So maybe someone's behind on their dues or maybe there's some sort of outstanding issue with the homeowner that really should not be leaked. And next thing you know, they're leaking it left and right because they gossip, which sort of leads me to maybe we should identify what are the characteristics of the meddler, which will help frame this out a little bit. And we wrote this down because there's a lot, but I like these characteristics. I think these are on point. So again, you have the excessive curiosity. You have the micromanagement tendencies, which I'm trying to think of a good way as to how that manifests itself. But I think hyper -focusing on maybe one or two people that they're just meddling anyways in their business. They're micromanaging maybe the HOA's approach to that one person or two people versus, again, that sort of equal, even -keeled approach to everybody.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

We've all had the neighbor, though, that is just always in your business anyway About everything and imagine that that neighbor now has power correct. That's that is a nightmare, correct

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Yeah, because the meddler in an HOA is one thing Yeah, that's just a third party who's just up in the mix But now you take that personality type you put them in a position of power. That's where we see the problem. Yeah So that's the micromanagement Gossiping and rumor spreading that's really where you're going to it privacy breaches potential privacy breaches or breaches of confidentiality Selective enforcement I touched upon as well That's the person with the clipboard targeting two homes because they specifically have an issue with them And they're trying to get specific information that they can bring back to the board and then weaponize the board against those two people The lack of personal boundaries, you know This is where the board of director is invited over to your home because they've invited themselves to sit down for tea They gather information and then they take that information. They bring it back to the board

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

We're not all perfect, but they also say know thyself and I think you 100 %

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

But here's the thing there's nothing illegal with having that personality trait obviously The trouble or the problem is when you take that personality you mix it in with that power and then you execute You know sort of in that framework, right? You're now taking your meddling You're leveraging it and you have a way to actually leverage it through an association board. That's where you have the problem Yeah, so that's where the meddler becomes very problematic pursuing personal agendas Again, I think that just goes to the nature of the meddler They might use that information to gain an advantage and it could be a personally motivated advantage.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

What would be an example of that?

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Let me think of a good one

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

Like a shared fence and you want to split the cost or something like that or maybe you would use it to benefit yourself?

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Well, boundary issues and fence issues are sort of their own category. So maybe putting that one aside for now, let's say a meddler lives next to another homeowner and the meddler's on the board and the meddler goes over to their house, has tea, and the homeowner says, hey, I'm going to have this big construction project. I have this beautiful vision and they're like, oh, let me see it. I want to know all about this project. project. And then the meddler takes that to the board and says, we need to shut down this project. That's self -interest. They actually do not want this project to go forward because of the potential impact on the meddler's life, notwithstanding the fact that the project might be totally legitimate under the Architectural Control Committee's guidelines. That would be self -interest, right? So now they're, again, meddling, getting all up in the mix on this construction project, contract, and then bringing it to the board, and then using the board as a forum to drive their self -interest. It's their own personal agenda.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Another interesting way of using the construction situation as well, let's say the construction contract was approved. Architectural control committee says, yep, high fives, your application is good to go. The meddler's next door, and every day is talking to the contractor. Are you guys on time? What is this? Is this sanctioned? and just really sort of creating problems within the project itself, and to the extent that they're identifying issues or just manufacturing issues, which is another thing. Not everything the meddler does is necessarily true, or what they communicate, right? They may fabricate the story.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

But it also seems like, you know, given the construction, I mean, you know, the meddler's driving down the road and sees a construction project, and is meddling because they want to be, they want to see what's happening inside there, And they're like they want to walk the premise and get in there. Oh, what are you doing here? What are you doing right there? And they really have no like right to do so Especially if it's already been approved by the by the HOA and but they want to see exactly what they're doing because they are curious.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Yeah, and then worst case scenario. They take that unauthorized site visit and they manufacture things they say Hey, I don't think certain things are up to code Which isn't true, but they bring it to the board in it in sort of this package of like hey they're doing unauthorized work there, then the board is all of a sudden concerned, attempts to shut down the project pending further evaluation. Now if anything, that's interference. They're interfering with the construction contract or construction that's happening. No, 100%.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

I feel like with so many friends, they'll be trying to be doing things without permits. They'll go behind the scenes and there's always a meddler that comes in and stops that and finds out about it.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Correct. And the question is, was it authorized? Was the site inspection authorized? And that's where you the lack of boundaries, right? So if you're a neighbor, you're not on the board and you say hey I want to check out this project and you get authorization. That's one thing if You have a meddler who's on the board and actually he's just curious wants to go in looks at the project That's fine. I think in and of itself that's okay It's when they take that as a as a chance to weaponize information Using the board as a vehicle that's not authorized. That's where you have a problem So those are the characteristics. And sort of if we look at the meddler, you have to look at impact on the community. And often what we see is it puts a lot of stress on their homeowners. It might be a group of homeowners, it might be one homeowner, but it creates a situation where you don't have that harmony. I mean, ideally an HOA is supposed to establish a sense of harmony. Rules are in place, equal application of the rules, but now you have a bad actor running around, creating problems.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

And you don't know that when you move in you don't know how many meddlers are in your community

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

yeah, you might be able to read the CC &R's but, how would you know if a meddler lurks on the board?

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Well, you could talk to other homeowners before you move in I mean that's an extraordinary step But if there's certain, you know, you get a read of the community maybe attend a community event I mean, there's certain ways maybe you could access that information. Let's hope you have a longer than 30 days Maybe you could go online and look at the reviews of the community. Maybe on Next Door Neighbor, there's some information. I mean, I think there might be ways to access it. To your point, I don't know how quickly you can access that information. It might be worth at least doing an initial review.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Some due diligence. Yeah.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Correct.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

And how many homeowners are going to be completely truthful with you? You know, a great community, you'd have to like really infer some of the information.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

But you know, some of our really bad cases, I mean, some of the homeowners will actually create YouTube channels explaining the problems. So when it's very, very bad, they do leak it to the public.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

My God, that seems like shooting yourself in the foot in terms of your own property value.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

But maybe it is for the short term. But if you're looking long term, if you're going to be there 30 years, maybe you take a hit on fair market value for the first year or two because you're really trying to solve a problem. Because the association, if you have a meddler and they're turning your community into a dumpster fire, OK, fine. You put some more damage on it by putting this out into the community But ultimately if you solve the problem if you put out the dumpster fire And you stabilize the community your projection for the next five ten years, okay, it goes up. You're right You might go down, but ultimately you're trying to drive it back up

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Yeah, if you get rid of or you even get rid of the meddler then correct problem solved correct

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Alright, so those are the characteristics what else would be helpful for you legal and ethical boundaries? We've kind of touched upon that before, but like I said, most associations should be operating within the CC &Rs with understanding that they're a fiduciary to the community. The meddler steps outside of that. They take steps that fall outside of their role as a board member. And when they do that, that's where you have the potential violations.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

So, let's say that we're in a consultation with you right now, and we have a meddler, and we need to get it solved. And they're not ready to pull the trigger on an attorney, but they really need some advice on how to handle this before it gets to the extent of needing an attorney. They need some counsel on how to solve this without legal intervention. And then maybe the second part of that is when do you bring on legal intervention? Where's the where's the crossover line where you say? I think it's time to get an attorney involved in this one

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Yeah, so first and foremost if you can not use a lawyer and solve the problem That's a win lawyers cost money and if you can resort to self -help that could be a huge a huge win for you So, you know if you're looking at a meddler, let me come up with a hypothetical. Maybe this person is leaking private information consistently to your detriment, right? Spreading rumors or disclosing information that's really confidential. So my first recommendation would be before hiring a lawyer and coming in with firepower, under at least California law, you have the right to demand what's called informal dispute resolution under the Davis -Sterling Act. And essentially the policy driving that is, California law wants to give homeowners sort of a platform to at least negotiate with their association before taking aggressive legal action. So IDR becomes sort of a platform that the homeowner can leverage and say to the association, hey, we have serious problems, here are the problems, I am demanding informal dispute resolution under the Davis -Sterling Act, which really forces the, at least in theory, it forces the hand of the association to sit down with that owner in good faith to discuss the problem before legal comes in.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

How do you, how does one initiate that? Because I would be totally lost on saying okay. I got that advice. You know yeah, I would have no idea about the law Yeah, and how would you then okay? You say? Enforces that how do you how does one go about doing it do they have to write a letter an email not? That board member hand them a piece of paper. How does that exchange work to make sure that you have all your bases?

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Yes, so the code contemplates You know that an owner non -lawyer is going to be initiating this process, so there really is no magic language which, you know, essentially an email to the management company or to the board with a subject line request for informal dispute resolution should suffice. And then the actual body of the email, right, dear board, dear management company, I'm hereby, I don't even know how to say hereby, that's too difficult. I'd like to sit down with the board in a, you know, in a context of IDR or informal dispute resolution to discuss the following issue or issues. I mean, it's really simple and it was actually funny, I was trying to make it more casual and that was challenging for me, but it's supposed to be casual. So long as you say informal dispute resolution, you identify the issue, that's sufficient.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

And under the Davis -Sterling Act, I guess here in California, they have an obligation to respond to that demand?

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

It's interesting. The spirit of the code is they have to come in good faith. They should accept it. A well -functioning association will say, yes, we will do this. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We'd love to sit down with you. The flip side, though, is if they reject it, ignore it, there's really no ramification to that. So it's, yes.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

It would be difficult with a meddler and say they are the person that's getting a hold of this or they're the chairperson of the HOA. Potentially, yeah. You could get stonewalled. Yeah.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

And so I think that goes into your second point when you bring in a lawyer. You try IDR and two things happen. And one, they ignore it, or they reject it. So they just, it doesn't happen at all. Or you go through with the IDR, you sit there, the meddler is leading the whole thing, and they just shut you down. The meddler says, I'm doing nothing wrong. Of course I take your information and spread it within the community. What's wrong with that? So clearly you're being stonewalled. They're not seeing it for what it is. At that point, you may contemplate attorney intervention at that point. That would be the triggering point in my mind. either a rejection or you just got stonewalled at the IDR. Hopefully though, you show up at the IDR and there's five other or four other board members who see the problem and you guys can actually troubleshoot and say, hey, you know what, this is a problem. Let's have a conversation with the meddler and maybe that will at least create some transparency in the space where the other board members are on notice of the misconduct of the one board member because you have to remember too, the other board members may have no idea What the one rogue board member is doing you kind of assume that they know but they may not know right? So it might just change the DNA of the board after you put them on notice of the problem And actually have a positive impact with the board. Where is it? Where's there? Is there a good place where a

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Non -sophisticated homeowner or just sorry an ignorant one like the layperson would go and outline the rules of conduct, maybe it's under the Davis -Sterling Act that a board member has to abide by to see that they've actually crossed a line. I don't imagine them being outlined in the CC &Rs, but I want to know, hey, did they cross the line here? Where in the law does it show that they've crossed the line? So I have a little bit of evidence to go back at them through this informal dispute resolution.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Yeah. So I think there's a little bit of a complexity there. That's where it does require more of a lawyer to step in to analyze that. Because you've got to remember, in California at least, you have the CC &Rs, or the governing documents, contractual obligations. You have the Davis -Sterling Act, which is sort of the umbrella law. And then you have case law analyzing all of this. So it becomes somewhat of a complicated analysis to determine what actually breached occurred and what's the appropriate resolution under the law. But I think at the early phases of this, I don't think the homeowner has to go that far to identify breach and consequence if they're having a problem with a rogue board member. That's sufficient to bring to an IDR table, to at least get it out there. And somewhat, there is a burden on the association to identify whether or not the association is acting illegally. Because what's likely going to happen, if you bring an IDR to the board and you write out the situation.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

On the back end, hopefully the association has a good lawyer who's reviewing this. And if the lawyer runs the analysis and says, oh my God, this actually is bad. This is a violation of the Davis Sterling Act, or this is a violation of our fiduciary to this homeowner, even though the homeowner didn't identify it in that context, a good association lawyer should be able to identify the potential liability. And that might trigger the attorney on the back end, sort of behind the scenes, to step in and exert management control over the association.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Assuming they, the board, or a board member brings it to the attention of their counsel. That's correct. Yeah.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

But arguably an IDR in and of itself is a legal threat. It's a precursor to more serious action. So you know, a well -functioning association should have an automatic protocol. When an IDR comes in, it goes to counsel for review.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

So does it, I know you said send something a bit more casual, but if you're referencing the Davis -Sterling Act in that IDR demand, does that not automatically throw the flags up? Oh, these guys are serious.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

You've done your research?

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

We've done our research. They're serious about this. They're referencing a part of the law, and that likely is to trigger the HOA's counsel to get involved and take it a bit more seriously.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

I suppose you could always put on more bells and whistles, right? Your baseline is demanding IDR. Next, you could say IDR under the Davis -Sterling Act. And then if you really want to get fancy, you cite the civil code. I mean, there's ways to build it up and make it a little bit more threatening, but ultimately, like I said, there's no magic language. IDR in and of itself sort of forces the issue in front of the board and hopefully triggers at least an adult on the other side to look at it, meaning the lawyer.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

But this also assumes that these board members, at least one board member, it's brought to their attention and they're competent and they know their fiduciary obligations under them serving in the board.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Resolution under IDR presupposes a lot of things. Yes, competency, that they actually care, that they understand fiduciary, that they understand governing documents, that they understand the Davis -Sterling Act. So when you get to a board and you don't hit resolution, it might be one or a failure on a number of fronts. But at least it's a way to test those waters. And by testing those waters, if they shut you down and say, hey, we can disclose confidential information, what's wrong with that? Okay, you got a big problem on your hands. Yeah, and that's why I'm advocating at that point Maybe then you bring it to a lawyer Sure, and you can at least present a bigger picture because now the lawyer knows who they're dealing with on the other side Which is going to calibrate how they approach and how they attack it sounds like idea is a great first step though It can be yeah, otherwise it could be a complete waste of time and energy, but it's not a bad

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

It's not a bad strategy initially so side note to this goes into a little bit bigger picture when you are are elected onto a board, is it commonplace where they give you any sort of training or you're having some sort of pledged to certain standards or is it just like, congratulations, and just sit down and listen? Do they have any sort of training? Do some of them have it?

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

It's all of the above. So it's high five, welcome to the club, grab a beer, and hang out with us by the pool, right? That is a makeup of some boards. Yeah. More sophisticated ones, there's an onboarding process where they're educated. Typically that's outsourced by way of the management company. The management company might have an educational modular set up to sort of say, hey, you're now a fiduciary. Here are the CC &Rs. We want you to understand the bylaws. Here's how we run things. I mean...

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

It seems like there should be some informal education.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

One would assume, but it's not mandatory. That's wild. I mean, I suppose the requirement is that they comply. That's mandatory. How they get educated, how they understand what the gravity of their chair is, that's separate.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

I wonder if there's a correlation between lack of knowledge and increased meddlers.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Well, I suppose it assumes whether or not the meddler is ignorant or knowledgeable, and so meddles notwithstanding the knowledge.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

Correct.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Sure, because you can have a very educated meddler. This is very true, right? Yeah, and sort of ignores rules and regulations rule ignores the governing documents and actually tries to weaponize those That's a dangerous meddler. Sure versus just the incompetent ignorant, right so

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Interesting. I don't know if there would be a correlation on that one. It almost seems like when we've had discussions about the laws changing in California, Florida, or wherever, it seems like a good baseline would be if you get elected to have some sort of training or something there. It seems like you could reduce so many potential disputes just by reducing ignorance alone.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

So my thought on that, it's interesting, I've never contemplated that requirement. Part of the way association law is set up is to encourage people to volunteer here to get on the board in the first place. If you start to create a barrier, you're going to have less people wanting to be on the board. And that could have a very negative impact on associations across California. Because no one wants to get on, because they're like, I have 40 hours of CLE, or you know, education. People may not want to run based on that. But how do you balance it, right? How do you, so I mean, you know, my theory, and it's been this. Maybe YouTube video.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Maybe, maybe, maybe there's a required,

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

maybe there's a two hour crash course. I don't know what the answer is You know, I've been looking at this and my team's been looking at this for a while, you know part of our The question is how do you ensure the Association acts rightfully? How do you make sure that they abide by the fiduciary? You can put more regulation around the space, but if they're already violating it, what's more regulation going to do? You know the flip side of that is you ramp up ramification consequence and you almost run a deterrence theory in the law where it says, hey, here's the set of laws, here's the restrictions, this is where you need to operate. And if you operate that way, you're cool, everything's fine. If you step out over here though, there is massive consequence that you'll be facing.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

The board, or sorry, rather, not personal, but the HOA would be in trouble.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Maybe both. I mean, you'd have to cut it. Maybe there's certain triggers that would put them in personal liability land. Others, it would just ramp up consequence against associations. So maybe if you do that, that would put a heightened awareness on the board, and maybe that heightened awareness would inspire education. They would want to know where the tripwires are. Maybe they don't care right now where the tripwires are, because who cares? I'm not going to get nailed. But if they understand, hey, you could, and there's severe consequences, maybe that would sort of strong -arm them into a position where they say, that maybe we will spend five hours learning what we're doing here. Because you got to remember too, these boards are managing millions and millions of dollars of real estate. Right?

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

That's actually a really good point.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

And it's not a position to take lightly, even though a lot of people do. And the boards that do that, the associations that do that, they do it really at their own peril. Because the owners do have power. They do have areas of attack on mismanaged or bad HOAs. So if you could really have those board members to understand the role that they're stepping into. And I'm not saying you have to raise the barrier of education, but once they're in that position, once they sort of understand, hey, this is a big deal if we breach our fiduciary, if we meddle, if we convey confidential information to the community, there's ramifications for that that could be quite severe. Okay, maybe that just curbs the behavior in the first place and stabilizes the associations, at least within California. Yeah.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

Yeah. That's interesting.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

So, any other questions for Meddler? I think it's a fun topic, but the other ones I think are actually maybe a little bit more exciting. The other personality types. That'll be our next episode. Yeah, so.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

I'm excited to get into the other ones as well. Yeah, I think the next. Some spicy ones.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

I think the next one is Tyrant.

Podcast Producer, Marty Vasquez

The next one is Tyrant.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

That's my favorite. So, all right.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

We will look forward to that.

Podcast Host, HOA Attorney, Luke Carlson, Esq.

Well, thank you guys. And thank you guys for watching the show.

Homeowner, Jenny Carlson

Thanks so much.